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Update (10:22 a.m., next day): We heard from SFMTA again. This time, Ms. Holland added that the important reason pass holders to tag is for the driver to have an auditory cue that you have paid. Otherwise when you board the bus, the driver can’t tell whether you have a valid Fast Pass on your Clipper card or not. You won’t be cited if you didn’t tag. But the driver can ask you to tag so they can know whether you need to pay.
Update: We just heard back from SFMTA spokesperson Kristen Holland, who told us that while it is a good idea to always tag your Clipper card, you will not be cited for not tagging if your Clipper card has a valid monthly Fast Pass. But at the beginning of the month, always check to make sure that your monthly Fast Pass has been loaded onto your Clipper card because you don’t want to be caught empty-carded!
Original post: Muni rider Mepe wants to get something off her chest:
Has anybody else heard about this? Can Muni really issue a citation to somebody who has paid for the month?
While we hope Mepe’s husband wasn’t cited, it’s our understanding that for some time now, all passengers have been compelled to show proof of payment. It kinda just seems like the right thing to do.
Because paper Fast Passes were phased out over a period of several months, the Clipper website says that pass holders should tag when they board Muni vehicles as proof of payment.
See update above.
While SFMTA says you won’t be cited for not tagging if you have a valid Fast Pass on your Clipper card, it’s still a good idea to tage and make sure that your Clipper card is valid. Nobody wants to be made a lesson of. So, all you Muni riders who have their passes on Clipper cards, don’t forget: Tag when you board Muni!
The problem is that you can have a clipper card with cash money loaded onto it and use it to ride SF MUNI but not have a monthly SF MUNI fastpass.
I do this a lot, with just plain old cash on the card to cover MUNI, BART and any other transit system I may want to ride when my monthly usage doesn’t justify the cost of a full monthly pass on any of them.
In my case, I tend to take MUNI to work in the morning but I usually walk the 2 miles home in the evening. My route goes by a gym where I wave at everyone who took MUNI, drove a car or rode their bike so that they could pay money to walk in place on the treadmills lined up in the window.
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possession of a current pass IS proof of payment. One has already paid Muni full monthly rental of the system. POP inspectors need to get real.
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This could be easily challenged in court. Muni and its federal-funding overseers merely want to collect data on your movements. If you have a current monthly pass on your Clipper, and you allow the fare inspector to scan it, that should be enough for Muni. There is no compelling state interest that justifies surveillance of your freedom of movement.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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you can challenge it but MUNI requires that you put down a $100 deposit to be heard and they do not guarantee a refund.
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Yes! They will absolutely cite you if you have a monthly pass. It happened to me.
In my case, I had forgotten my monthly pass, was stopped by an “officer (they’re not “officers” because in 2008 MUNI rider citations were decriminalized and moved out of the jurisdiction of SF Superior Court – see: http://www.sfmta.com/cms/apress/SFMTAAnnouncesDecriminalizationofTransitCitations.htm).” I told him that I had a monthly pass and he said that there was no problem. I just had to sign the citation and then send in a copy of my clipper card and the citation would be expunged. I asked him THREE times just for clarification, just to be completely clear. It turns out that he lied. And MUNI knows that their “officers” are lying. I was told on a call by a MUNI agent that he was aware that “officers” will “say whatever they have to say not to cause a scene.”
They will cite you if you let them. The last time I was asked to show my pass I simply declined. I got a spoonful of attitude from the woman, but she didn’t do anything. MUNI citations are NOT a matter of SF law anymore. They put on a show of having authority, but they don’t have any. Also, if you don’t pay the WORST they can do is *POSSIBLY* affect your credit score.
I’m not paying for the citation I was issued for not carrying my monthly pass and then being lied to about it.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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I’ll start tagging on the N-Judah in the morning when I can actually get to the machine! This train is so packed during the commute, some mornings I’m lucky to even get on.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Hm, I wrote up a long thing about how tagging it is the same as showing your paper pass, which you were required to do, but remembered that on the N-Judah you’re not showing your pass to anyone unless prompted by an inspector.
They probably need to change the wording on their POP signage to reflect that you need to tag in no matter what. I’ve done it when on the rail just out of habit but can see why people with a monthly pass who routinely ride the N only might not think twice about it. That’s too bad.
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You definitely have to tag once a month (to “activate” the monthly pass, afaik) but do you really need to tag every single time?
Seems like an unnecessary hassle to me.
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Merely having the pass means you have paid, so this whole citation for not tagging is redundant and stupid. Any fare collector that rides can easily tag your Clipper Card and see you have the pass, so why the big fuss?
And like someone above said, MUNi citations have been decriminalized. You now have the option to decline showing your card and walking right pass these SFMTA roaches. Previous to 2008, they could call the police on you and you could be detained. No more.
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Can you still walk past these fare inspectors if you have no proof of payment whatsoever (ex: no transfer or no value on Clipper Card)?
Your example provides the context of a monthly pass on the Clipper card in your possession, but you just refuse to show them.
Is this more of a ethical/moral issue if we can all do this?
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Joe, stop being a brown-nosing wimp.
An ethical issue? In a city that CANNOT sustain a population where every single person has a car, the riders are doing the city as much of a service as they are providing us. I sometimes wonder without MUNI officers and all the highly unethical (not to mention unsavory) behavior of MUNI executives re: salaries, whether anyone would even NEED to pay a fare. This is public good.
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The first time I read this I was outraged, but the more I thought about it, it does make sense. In order to track how many people are riding and be able to adjust (in a perfect world) how many buses/trains are running.
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I tag if it’s convenient. If say I’m getting on through the back door and it’s packed and I can’t get to the reader, I don’t bother.
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As crestal pointed out, the reason MUNI wants everyone to tag, whether fastpass or not, is so they can get accurate numbers.
If you are running MUNI, how do you decide which lines are the most crowded? Is the F-Market, which has lots of one-day passes, more crowded than the N-Judah, which has mostly fastpass riders? How do you get the ridership numbers to apply for federal funding? If people aren’t tagging, they aren’t officially on the vehicle, and they confuse those decisions and grant applications.
It totally sucks that there aren’t enough taggers to go to on a crowded line, and it’s absurd for MUNI to fine passengers who can’t tag in, but they aren’t being unreasonable in asking that we do it when we can.
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Thanks for clarifying for us!
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Yes – thanks for clarifying. I can’t wait to tell my ‘favorite’ fare inspector(the one who scolded me for not tagging my Fast Pass loaded CC) know about this.
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I always tag, just out of habit, and because I board through the front door and thus have to pass the driver and the tag box. It is good to know we don’t have to, though – just in case I do end up on a bus that’s too crowded. Thanks!
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I had asked a fare inspector about this myself, and got the same information: my understanding is that they can track your card number and prove that you have a monthly pass. They prefer it when you tag on though, because it helps them count their riders. (I wonder why just tagging your card and reading that is says “pass used” isn’t enough to prove that you have a monthly pass though? why all the special tracking of the card number?)
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Because those cards can be cloned, they will start requiring this to prevent fraud.
They have a fraud detection algorithm but they can only catch you if both users (original and duplicate) tag them enough.
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Got a buddy of mine that is a fare inspector i asked him about this:
1. He told me if you have a pass u dont HAVE to tag it, but since Muni layed off all the people that use to count the riders they use the data collected from the card to help with there ridership counts when they apply for federal money, they would like the patrons to tag.
2. True that the cites have been decriminalized, so Muni can get all the cash from the fines, they can affect your credit score and he has heard that when you get your tax return they take the money out of it before you get your return. He also heard they are thinking about changing the law so it is more like a parking ticket ie: you dont pay your fine you can not register your car or get your liscence renewed.
3. He also told me that they have these sings with a bunch of Inspectors with SFPD on scene. You might be able to walk away from the Inspectors but no the cops. He has seen many people end up in cuffs when they dont do what the cops say and if they have any warrents your 2 dollar free ride turns into a trip to the station.
4. He says just pay your fare and the inspectors with be in and out of the bus in no time.
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The scenario in #2 is highly, highly, highly, highly (and just to emphasize, highly) unlikely. And #3 is just plain fear mongering. Your “buddy” is a fare inspector, huh? Hmm. My “friend” is a well-informed citizen disinterested in fear-mongering.
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So what does one do if those god damn Clipper boxes AREN’T WORKING!?
I also keep my paper receipt whenever I “refill” my card at Walgreens so no matter what I have proof!
CHUPAR AMIGO DURO!!
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I keep my receipt as well. Takes up no room in my wallet.
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Ha! I know that inspector who takes her job way too seriously, or at least by know, I’ve seen her on the N. she does tend to preach, and violators will often get a propaganda lesson. Her co-workers seem just as annoyed by her militant angle as some of us are, but I’m sure she probably hits high numbers.
I don’t see why swiping your card is hassle, regardless. Using the angle that it’s too ‘inconvenient’ is bordering on lazy. However, much like some of the other people, the N can be swamped- so swamped you can’t reach back to swipe your card. I’ve explained that before, and they were sympathetic.
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Wow… Today I got a citation from an inspector who claimed I didn’t tag my clipper card prior to getting on the bus. I clearly remember and know that I did tag my card and tried to argue my case but the inspectors didn’t even care to listen to me. I even showed my receipt to show that I have a monthly pass on my card and they didn’t even care to try and look at it. I feel like I got scammed into a $100 ticket. I’m definitely going to protest this.
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My son and i had to take the MUNI N Judah line for the first time last Thursday. We are from out of town and had never taken it before. Getting to our destination was not issue. On our way back when we got on the line someone told me to scan our tickets (they were dailies) I did and it showed green indicating all was well. When we got off at our stop the Metro police were there scanning tickets. My son’s was fine but mine had not “tagged” I was pulled out line and given a 100.00 fine. I tried to question the officer as to why because it showed my card had the money on it for the ride and my son’s card had been cleared. I was told that was not his problem and that his supervisor was watching and he had to give me the fine. I am currently contesting it but it really left a poor taste in my mouth. It didn’t help my son was freaked out thinking I was about to be arrested and that we would not be allowed to take the MUNI again for his next appt at UCSF. There has to be better people to help us out of towners learn the system instead of getting nailed with a 100.00 fine.
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I’m no longer going to use the monthly pass since being fined $200.00 for having an expired ID even though I had paid my $21.00 DISABLED monthly fair. The fat pig bitch didn’t care. I should have paid nothing and just got a 75.00 fine. I will pay with change from now on – slowly, very slowly, as the bus cannot leave till I’ve paid. It used to take a second, now it will be at least 30 – 60 seconds, everytime. I also won’t be able to find my transfer when reboarding for a long time. Sorry to the passengers but I know this will hurt MUNI more – months of this and HOURS will be waisted – 10 hours and we’ll be even…
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How would you feel if you were approached by a Muni Fare Police that had a criminal record and did a decade in prison for kidnapping, murder,theif and drug charges? Not So Great Right? Well if you use the system daily like I do, you’ve probably already have been aproached. According to my source there are three ex-felons checking for proof of payment .,They were hired without going through a Complete background check because one of them has a father in Muni who pulled strings and asked for favors to Get his son and wife hired. All the other Muni Police Went through Criminal Background Checks and passed…..Ummmm? How Scary is This and How Wrong is Muni To Allow A Murder, kidnapper and drug abuser to ask you for proof of payment.
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If you make a claim like that, back it up with some evidence. It has little weight under anonymity or without fact.
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I have the facts, its public knowledge.I have the proof, I have the names. I wouldn’t be making bogus statements like this if it wasn’t true, I think Ed
Reskin needs to be aware of the people first, before the names go public.
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When you can publish those names and facts, let us know.
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I will notifying Ed Reskin next week for a response, if he doesn’t do anything about it, I’m going to the media ( with my FACTS) andhopefully it will expose what I’m sure Mr.Reskin wanted hidden.
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Hey Virgie, I just got two citations on my way to SFSU today..both $100 each. What do you recommend I should do? Any feedback is muchly appreciated. Have you paid off the citations you’ve gotten?
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I have to say I have a hard time believing half these stories. I ride daily and have more than a few times forgotten to tag my pass when fare checkers were checking. Each time they look it up and say you are okay. Sometimes,with a sternness but never with a cite. I am trying to remember just in case and I know there has been some technical difficulty if you have money or something….but never had a problem with a pass,ever.
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If you have a pass they can verify that with there reader. If you don’t have a pass ie Cash, 10 ride booklet basically anything that shows that you are not OK you can be cited, ie i forgot to tag when i boarded, jumping up to tag when they show up you can be cited.
Ed
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